whirlfloc problem with Excess Trub Help please

[Eoin]

Hi there

My initial observation re excessive trib leads me to conclude that its caused by particles from the hops and the grain.  Up until my last brew (SD barley wine) I was getting nearly two inches plus of trub. i adjusted the gap on my gain mill to make the crush course and i put my leaf hops in a cotton hop bag & put that bag inside a paint strainer bag. The stuff that came out of the bags post boil looked remarkably like trub. I had 26 litres of wort & I added 2 whirl floc tablets. I have less than one inch of trub in the fermenter leading to me conclude it is not the whirl floc (in my case) that was the problem but my process.

Shanna

It's possible alright, but the sitution with Whirlfloc is documented and known. Do a side by side, correct dose vs overdose and you'll see it straight off.

[brenmurph]

Bren, where did you get the kerry group stuff from?

They seem to have quite a variety of unusually brewing ingredients on their website.

America, I think it was ebay. 17 dollars for 1lb bag and u use a couple grams per brew, I think it works out about 50 times cheaper than buying tablets from homebrew shops and I think its somewhat better, it just seems to drop incredibly clear in minutes and Ive never seen that with tablets.

Next event remind me Ill bring u a few grams to play with.
Its not labeled as Kerry Foods but as Kerry foods seem to have the rights / patent / brand rights I presume its kerry foods

[imark]

I was using whirlfloc but have reverted to Irish Moss. I think it's just as good and I'm not adding whatever the additional chemicals that are in that stuff.
I suspected it effects the wort pH. But I never tested it before I ran out of the stuff. Anybody checked this?

[brenmurph]

Hi there

My initial observation re excessive trib leads me to conclude that its caused by particles from the hops and the grain.  Up until my last brew (SD barley wine) I was getting nearly two inches plus of trub. i adjusted the gap on my gain mill to make the crush course and i put my leaf hops in a cotton hop bag & put that bag inside a paint strainer bag. The stuff that came out of the bags post boil looked remarkably like trub. I had 26 litres of wort & I added 2 whirl floc tablets. I have less than one inch of trub in the fermenter leading to me conclude it is not the whirl floc (in my case) that was the problem but my process.

Shanna

It's possible alright, but the sitution with Whirlfloc is documented and known. Do a side by side, correct dose vs overdose and you'll see it straight off.

Ive played around a lot with my last 50 brews since starting to use whirlfloc,
I discovered that skimming the hot break significantly reduces without affecting the finished beer (7 medals in nationals) so I always skim the hot break especially the brown & black grainy stuff.
pellet hops massively increase trub versus hop cones in a muslin net

Most of the trub thats left is reconsumed by yeast and Im very happy to leave trub in fermenter. the trub is a well- known yeast nutrient, however various sources suggest removing trub by whirlpooling or leaving behind in kettle. I dont believe this is necessary and would love some science that shows the pros and cons.
the pic attached shows the level of trub using 3 grams of pellets in 1 gallon and 0.3gram per gallon whirlfloc g

[Eoin]

I skim my hot break as a rule, but then with BIAB it's a sensible thing to do anyway.

I find skimming coming up to the boil reduces the "lift" of the cap which can lead to a boilover, I also find it helps with the final clearing of the beer.

[brenmurph]

Anyone wants to see the real price of protofloc heres the link.
I have no clue as to why people pay 40cent per tablet.
Also Im amazed no one has done a group buy on it.

I payed 17 dollars for 454 grams and free shipping. Murphy and son have protofloc power for about 10 euros per half KG and 37 sterling for 2kg of it

http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/store/index.php?_a=viewCat&catId=8

I have a few years supply of the professional powder  that I got in America, if anyone wants to start using it but just wants a small amount let me know Ill pass on a few samples.

[Eoin]

Anyone wants to see the real price of protofloc heres the link.
I have no clue as to why people pay 40cent per tablet.
Also Im amazed no one has done a group buy on it.

I payed 17 dollars and free shipping. Murphy and son have whirlfloc power for about 10 euros per lb ( half KG) 37 sterling for 2kg of it

http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/store/index.php?_a=viewCat&catId=8

I bought one tub of this, probably 6 years ago, I think a 200g pack, I still have some, it's not stuff you'll go through too fast if you dose it properly. That said I'd go in on a group buy to get myself another 300g or so of it as I am getting low.

[Eoin]

I was using whirlfloc but have reverted to Irish Moss. I think it's just as good and I'm not adding whatever the additional chemicals that are in that stuff.
I suspected it effects the wort pH. But I never tested it before I ran out of the stuff. Anybody checked this?

I use 1.8g of the stuff over 60l of a brew...that won't have any significant effect on pH and it's also post mash so pH is irrelevant in the last 15 minutes of the boil, also it's been formulated for brewing and all the enhancement is is a bit of calcium or the like added to aid the coagulation, it's nothing major.

[imark]

I was using whirlfloc but have reverted to Irish Moss. I think it's just as good and I'm not adding whatever the additional chemicals that are in that stuff.
I suspected it effects the wort pH. But I never tested it before I ran out of the stuff. Anybody checked this?

I use 1.8g of the stuff over 60l of a brew...that won't have any significant effect on pH and it's also post mash so pH is irrelevant in the last 15 minutes of the boil, also it's been formulated for brewing and all the enhancement is is a bit of calcium or the like added to aid the coagulation, it's nothing major.

I guess as you guys are using the powder you're avoiding the bicarbonate of soda that makes up the bulk of the tablet, tight?

The MSDS sheet for whirlfloc g states the shelflife as 2yrs. So it probably becomes less effective over time. Maybe you can address that by increasing the dosage to address it.
http://www.ldcarlson.com/MSDS_sheets/6107%20Whirlfloc.pdf

Would be interesting to do a split batch with irish moss and whirlfoc. If somebody donates me a baggie of whirlfloc I'll do it. Or I'm happy to donate some irish moss.

[Eoin]

I was using whirlfloc but have reverted to Irish Moss. I think it's just as good and I'm not adding whatever the additional chemicals that are in that stuff.
I suspected it effects the wort pH. But I never tested it before I ran out of the stuff. Anybody checked this?

I use 1.8g of the stuff over 60l of a brew...that won't have any significant effect on pH and it's also post mash so pH is irrelevant in the last 15 minutes of the boil, also it's been formulated for brewing and all the enhancement is is a bit of calcium or the like added to aid the coagulation, it's nothing major.

I guess as you guys are using the powder you're avoiding the bicarbonate of soda that makes up the bulk of the tablet, tight?

The MSDS sheet for whirlfloc g states the shelflife as 2yrs. So it probably becomes less effective over time. Maybe you can address that by increasing the dosage to address it.
http://www.ldcarlson.com/MSDS_sheets/6107%20Whirlfloc.pdf

Would be interesting to do a split batch with irish moss and whirlfoc. If somebody donates me a baggie of whirlfloc I'll do it. Or I'm happy to donate some irish moss.

I can send you on some if you want, it's older but to be honest it's still working fine, it's dry and still in the original box, I can't see how it could be ineffective.

It's only about a gram you'd need on a standard gravity 22l batch.

[brenmurph]

ye just 1 to 2 gram for homebrew batch so  2 kgs. I make that 3 cent per homebrew batch based on 1.5 grams per batch. Homebrew shops around 40cent per beer batch.
Personally I find it strange that a produce can multiply 125+ times between wholesaler and retailer 

Murphy & sons sell the tablets as well in buckets, would be simple to do a group buy. Thats what I presume the homebrew shops do, take a bucket of 1000 tabs and put into 10pks and add on 12,500% profit...bit odd to me how this can happen.
As a homebrew club we should deal with these things and maybe ask why the profit markup is so high on stuff like that while the mark up on grain is somewhere between 100 and 150%.
I remember previous times where retailers marked up by maybe 30% across nearly all industry especially the food industry

[Eoin]

ye just 1 to 2 gram for homebrew batch so  2 kgs. I make that 3 cent per homebrew batch based on 1.5 grams per batch. Homebrew shops around 40cent per beer batch.
Personally I find it strange that a produce can multiply 125+ times between wholesaler and retailer 

Murphy & sons sell the tablets as well in buckets, would be simple to do a group buy. Thats what I presume the homebrew shops do, take a bucket of 1000 tabs and put into 10pks and add on 12,500% profit...bit odd to me how this can happen.
As a homebrew club we should deal with these things and maybe ask why the profit markup is so high on stuff like that while the mark up on grain is somewhere between 100 and 150%.
I remember previous times where retailers marked up by maybe 30% across nearly all industry especially the food industry

I don't think the tablets are worth getting myself, cos to use them you invariably have to divide them. The guy in the Liverpool organic brewery, if my memory serves me well, was saying he only uses two tablets on his system which is a mutl-barrel system.

powder all the way for me.

[brenmurph]

I think we use less powder by weight than tablets, I presume there are fillers ( e.g calcium) to form the tablets, im guessing the powder is just ground moss. Making it pound for pound even better value than tablets.

@ mark
Next Lucan meet Ill being u some powder for ya, anyone else let me know. If theres others then ill bring 100g (ref eoin thats 100+ batches / 20 euro at homebrew shop prices ) and ye can split it, one of yis can buy me a pint to cover it

[Eoin]

I think we use less powder by weight than tablets, I presume there are fillers ( e.g calcium) to form the tablets, im guessing the powder is just ground moss. Making it pound for pound even better value than tablets.

@ mark
Next Lucan meet Ill being u some powder for ya, anyone else let me know. If theres others then ill bring 100g (ref eoin thats 100+ batches / 20 euro at homebrew shop prices ) and ye can split it, one of yis can buy me a pint to cover it

The powder is listed as being a refined seaweed product so I don't think it's plain moss.

[LordEoin]

buying the 2kg powder would probably be the way forward alright, but you'd need 20 people to go in on it for it to make sense (100g@ £1.89), then you're stuck with repackaging and distribution, and after all that's done it's hardly worth the effort  to save a fiver over a couple of years.